leoindiano
08-16 08:33 AM
SRK is an idiot guys...
In his movies, he wears and promotes US brands half the time. In his stupid movies from 1999 and 2005, he wore US flag on his clothes. He got houses in London, Dubai. He presents himself indian because that sells. Dont loose sleep over this issue. He is trying to publicize his upcoming movie. Do you think he is going to stop that?
I couldnt sleep when Mumbai was burning on CNN. But, why would SRK care about that?
Salman Khan was very sensible in his comments about the issue. Salman, i will watch your next movie in theater for looking from common man perspective. I will make sure, i will not watch SRK movies in theater anymore.
In his movies, he wears and promotes US brands half the time. In his stupid movies from 1999 and 2005, he wore US flag on his clothes. He got houses in London, Dubai. He presents himself indian because that sells. Dont loose sleep over this issue. He is trying to publicize his upcoming movie. Do you think he is going to stop that?
I couldnt sleep when Mumbai was burning on CNN. But, why would SRK care about that?
Salman Khan was very sensible in his comments about the issue. Salman, i will watch your next movie in theater for looking from common man perspective. I will make sure, i will not watch SRK movies in theater anymore.
wallpaper be Megan Fox#39;s replacement
soma
02-13 11:34 AM
Ok - so what is it going to cost us to get a consult with Rajiv Khanna? Anyone know this? Until we have more details on this, I commit $25 for this first consultation. (I will gladly raise the commitment once I know how much this will cost and if IV Core Members support this initiative).
Even I am ready to put in $ 25 for the first consultation with Rajiv khanna or any other Lawyer IV core wants to go with. And if IV plans to go ahead with class action lawsuit as per requirement will raise my monetary commitment. please PM me if IV core plans to go ahead.
Even I am ready to put in $ 25 for the first consultation with Rajiv khanna or any other Lawyer IV core wants to go with. And if IV plans to go ahead with class action lawsuit as per requirement will raise my monetary commitment. please PM me if IV core plans to go ahead.
gdilla
07-11 01:51 PM
And don't forget 9month maternity leaves, and if you're unemployed, you still get healthcare, and the generally better public education, not to mention generally cheaper and excellent post-secondary education....
Every time I hear "Canadian taxes are so much higher", I respond back with "really ? how much are you paying a month for health insurance?". I suggest a typical breadwinner with spouse + 2 dependents is probably paying $500 / mo + in health insurance premiums. Add that $6K / yr to your US tax bill, then compare it to your Canadian tax bill. ;)
- GS
Every time I hear "Canadian taxes are so much higher", I respond back with "really ? how much are you paying a month for health insurance?". I suggest a typical breadwinner with spouse + 2 dependents is probably paying $500 / mo + in health insurance premiums. Add that $6K / yr to your US tax bill, then compare it to your Canadian tax bill. ;)
- GS
2011 Meet Megan Fox#39;s replacement
gomirage
06-17 07:22 PM
Outsourcing is bad for not only for US citizens but also for future H1bs and GC aspirants also.
Still all the jobs cannot be outsourced. Also if that would have been the case I would have been out of job. But My salary was increasing steadily and in this tough economy also I was able to get a new job with 20% rise in pay after I lost job . There are many companies in USA who are only hiring USA citizens and discouraging outsourcing. Wherever I was working I discouraged those companies from outsourcing but encouraged them to hire h1bs ,GC holders or US citizens. Many start up companies in California cannot afford to do outsourcing because of tight release schedules.
oh yeah !!! Like the companies in this story.
Still all the jobs cannot be outsourced. Also if that would have been the case I would have been out of job. But My salary was increasing steadily and in this tough economy also I was able to get a new job with 20% rise in pay after I lost job . There are many companies in USA who are only hiring USA citizens and discouraging outsourcing. Wherever I was working I discouraged those companies from outsourcing but encouraged them to hire h1bs ,GC holders or US citizens. Many start up companies in California cannot afford to do outsourcing because of tight release schedules.
oh yeah !!! Like the companies in this story.
more...
saimrathi
07-03 06:58 PM
On 7/3/07, Senator_Clinton@clinton.senate.gov <Senator_Clinton@clinton.senate.gov> wrote:
Dear Friend:
Thank you for taking the time to share your thoughts and concerns with me
via e-mail. I hope you will understand that, because of the volume of
e-mails I receive from residents of New York State, I cannot at this time
respond to messages received from residents of other states. I encourage
you to contact your U.S. senators if you have an issue or concern that
needs immediate attention. You can access your senators electronically by
visiting http://www.senate.gov/contacting/index_by_state.cfm for a listing
of their contact information. If you are still interested in learning
more about the work I am doing on behalf of New York State, I hope you
will continue to monitor my work through my website at
http://clinton.senate.gov.
Sincerely,
Senator Hillary Rodham Clinton
New York State
Dear Friend:
Thank you for taking the time to share your thoughts and concerns with me
via e-mail. I hope you will understand that, because of the volume of
e-mails I receive from residents of New York State, I cannot at this time
respond to messages received from residents of other states. I encourage
you to contact your U.S. senators if you have an issue or concern that
needs immediate attention. You can access your senators electronically by
visiting http://www.senate.gov/contacting/index_by_state.cfm for a listing
of their contact information. If you are still interested in learning
more about the work I am doing on behalf of New York State, I hope you
will continue to monitor my work through my website at
http://clinton.senate.gov.
Sincerely,
Senator Hillary Rodham Clinton
New York State
nc14
07-03 10:44 PM
GO IV GO!!
http://digg.com/politics/Rep_Lofgren_Issues_Statement_on_Updated_Visa_Bulle tin
please DIGG
Thank you
http://digg.com/politics/Rep_Lofgren_Issues_Statement_on_Updated_Visa_Bulle tin
please DIGG
Thank you
more...
Rohan99
07-30 04:07 PM
can you share the phone number and address of that Away family?:) May be for a change lot of people from this thread may want to meet this Away person. :rolleyes:
Met this dude once in a grocery store, he and his hot wife gave me the amway speil. I said listen buddy give me a time to visit your house and number. I called him and we played phone tag, one day I called and his wife picked up, i ASKED IF i could come, she was hesitant and said he was out of state for a conference but I convinced her that it's ok. When I arrived I brought a bottle of wine and then she was all over me in 5 mins. Sigh what a wonderful time....
Met this dude once in a grocery store, he and his hot wife gave me the amway speil. I said listen buddy give me a time to visit your house and number. I called him and we played phone tag, one day I called and his wife picked up, i ASKED IF i could come, she was hesitant and said he was out of state for a conference but I convinced her that it's ok. When I arrived I brought a bottle of wine and then she was all over me in 5 mins. Sigh what a wonderful time....
2010 enough to replace Megan?
tikka
07-04 09:11 AM
Originally Posted by Macaca ( add ons from forum in red)
I am trying an outline for sending to media + lawmakers + ...
The following is a very rough draft without reading some of the letters posted in the thread. I will read the posts tomorrow and polish it by tomorrow evening. I will need everyone's input since I don't know all the issues.
Introduction
Retrogression in GC process.
What happened
� USCIS announced at the time the forms were due.
� Applicants started filling forms 2-3 weeks before July 2.
� Applicants changed their schedules to submit forms.
Advantages of EAD + AP
Don't know all!
� Travel without visa -> saves Embassy overhead.
� Spouse can work.
� Can switch job.
Why does it hurt
� Medical will not be valid after 1 year.
� Rejected June filers can not file.
� June filers did not file because they thought they will file in July.
� Fees more then doubling
� Name checking (which can take 1+ year) done in parallel with waiting for GC #.
� Load balancing for USCIS.
� USCIS which is supported 90% by application fee needs to care for applicants.
� Very little chance of legislative relief for a looong time.
� Many had to take MMR vaccine and hence postpone their plans to have kids by 3-6 months as recommended by NIH.
� Lawyers who charged upwards of $2000 for filing will not refund the service fee, so candidates have to pay again when dates become current in future.
The biggest loss is the trust, coz, next time people will not believe these mid month bulletins at all as they can come around anytime and revise the dates. So, applicants will always have to live in fear untill they receive the receipt
Age out situations with children
Once a child turns 21 he/she can no longer be filed with the primary applicant. However, once the I485 is filed with USCIS the child is regarded as "safe" regardless of how long the USCIS takes to adjudicate the I485.
I have that very situation. My son turn 21 in mid-January 2008. The original July brought great relief from years of worrying about whether our PD would become "current" in time. We scrambled to get ready to file 2nd July, only to have everything collapse around us again
Hope the info clarifies the "age out" situation!
For "Spouse can work" we might want to word it such that it just does not look like one job less for Americans. Something like spouse can exercise the freedom to get out of the house and contribute to the American economy.
I am trying an outline for sending to media + lawmakers + ...
The following is a very rough draft without reading some of the letters posted in the thread. I will read the posts tomorrow and polish it by tomorrow evening. I will need everyone's input since I don't know all the issues.
Introduction
Retrogression in GC process.
What happened
� USCIS announced at the time the forms were due.
� Applicants started filling forms 2-3 weeks before July 2.
� Applicants changed their schedules to submit forms.
Advantages of EAD + AP
Don't know all!
� Travel without visa -> saves Embassy overhead.
� Spouse can work.
� Can switch job.
Why does it hurt
� Medical will not be valid after 1 year.
� Rejected June filers can not file.
� June filers did not file because they thought they will file in July.
� Fees more then doubling
� Name checking (which can take 1+ year) done in parallel with waiting for GC #.
� Load balancing for USCIS.
� USCIS which is supported 90% by application fee needs to care for applicants.
� Very little chance of legislative relief for a looong time.
� Many had to take MMR vaccine and hence postpone their plans to have kids by 3-6 months as recommended by NIH.
� Lawyers who charged upwards of $2000 for filing will not refund the service fee, so candidates have to pay again when dates become current in future.
The biggest loss is the trust, coz, next time people will not believe these mid month bulletins at all as they can come around anytime and revise the dates. So, applicants will always have to live in fear untill they receive the receipt
Age out situations with children
Once a child turns 21 he/she can no longer be filed with the primary applicant. However, once the I485 is filed with USCIS the child is regarded as "safe" regardless of how long the USCIS takes to adjudicate the I485.
I have that very situation. My son turn 21 in mid-January 2008. The original July brought great relief from years of worrying about whether our PD would become "current" in time. We scrambled to get ready to file 2nd July, only to have everything collapse around us again
Hope the info clarifies the "age out" situation!
For "Spouse can work" we might want to word it such that it just does not look like one job less for Americans. Something like spouse can exercise the freedom to get out of the house and contribute to the American economy.
more...
soma
02-12 10:52 PM
how abt IV core leading us here or how abt murthy and other IV supporters who are immigration lawyers too.
hair as sexy as Megan Fox - who
coopheal
02-12 07:35 PM
Quota means a guaranteed number of visa for a country. For example if there is a 3% quota for monorities in college admissions, it guarentees 3% will go to minorities. There is no such quota for green card; only maximum limit a country can use. Even with this limit India captures more visas then any of the ROW countries.
Okay so remove per country cap.
Okay so remove per country cap.
more...
justAnotherFile
07-29 03:17 PM
Has anyone been able to get case status from TSC IO?
I managed to reach a IO but they now say that they are not giving out case status over teh phone and the only way to get it is to put in a 'service request' which will be responded to by regular mail?
I managed to reach a IO but they now say that they are not giving out case status over teh phone and the only way to get it is to put in a 'service request' which will be responded to by regular mail?
hot replacement for Megan Fox
amitga
02-15 06:08 PM
What happend when a law contradicts another law. There is a law which says slavery in unlawful and 'employment at will' is the right of every person on US Soil.
Now another law is that to limit the number of visa which is causing the voilation of above mentioed law. USCIS is follwing the law of visa numbers. In the process the other laws are being voilated. Somebody should be liable for that.
Now another law is that to limit the number of visa which is causing the voilation of above mentioed law. USCIS is follwing the law of visa numbers. In the process the other laws are being voilated. Somebody should be liable for that.
more...
house role replacing Megan Fox
sodh
01-28 07:28 PM
Thanks for the clarification msyedy, and your valuable time.
tattoo Who Could Be Replacing Megan
Marphad
04-01 12:23 PM
You Idiot,
When you keep updating this thread it keeps coming on top.
I ignored it for a few days and finally clicked to see what the Fuck is going on here.
Now it seems even moderators are joining this madness.
If infighting keeps continuing on this forum and you keep discussing non-immigration related topics here, you will never get your green card. FOCUS!
It is strange that you all want green card so that you live in USA but pretend to be SOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO concerned about Prime Minister of India and then start blaming each other..
No wonder NumbersUSA etc are succeding..
Pappu,
Please remove my profile and user ID from the system. I can't be part of these morons. I shall get my GC when I shall have to get it. I am not here to discuss non-GC related issues. There are many more forums to do that.
9-1-1, Fire Department, come soon!!!!!!!!!!!
When you keep updating this thread it keeps coming on top.
I ignored it for a few days and finally clicked to see what the Fuck is going on here.
Now it seems even moderators are joining this madness.
If infighting keeps continuing on this forum and you keep discussing non-immigration related topics here, you will never get your green card. FOCUS!
It is strange that you all want green card so that you live in USA but pretend to be SOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO concerned about Prime Minister of India and then start blaming each other..
No wonder NumbersUSA etc are succeding..
Pappu,
Please remove my profile and user ID from the system. I can't be part of these morons. I shall get my GC when I shall have to get it. I am not here to discuss non-GC related issues. There are many more forums to do that.
9-1-1, Fire Department, come soon!!!!!!!!!!!
more...
pictures Michael Bay made Megan Fox#39;s
Imigrait
06-15 07:37 PM
Guys, I am sure everyone in this forum will get greencard, unless they don't want it. You just need to be patient and wait for your turn. My priority date is 06/03 and EB3. I am pretty sure, I should get my GC by EOY 2011. I am in this country since 1997. Just hang on to your jobs or find a job if you loose one. You will get your GC. GC shouldn't stop you from pursuing your interests buying house or starting a business, there are always ways to do it.
How're you sure? :confused: or would you rather say you hope and think that this is a possibility.
How're you sure? :confused: or would you rather say you hope and think that this is a possibility.
dresses she can replace Megan Fox
Marphad
03-27 02:17 PM
I cannot think of any one good leader left in india. not one who can rise above self-interest and narrow mentality. Can you imagine any one of the so called leaders that was mentioned in this list leading the nation, and not be a laughing stock? remember deva gowda at davos...made a mockery of India there. Mayawati/modi, etc. what kind of leadership qualities (international affairs/finance/etc) do they have? the only kind of experience they have is gundaism, and creating conflicts with caste, culture and religion.
I wish most of the current class of leaders were erased, and a new class of leaders were brought in. Sadly that'll never happen with the kind of democratic setup we have. in the name of representation, we are debarring intellects, and people with broad vision from joining politics.
Why do you forget Mulayam Singh? He has a great quality of pampering muslims and giving tickets to Gundas. He scored #1 in that.
I wish most of the current class of leaders were erased, and a new class of leaders were brought in. Sadly that'll never happen with the kind of democratic setup we have. in the name of representation, we are debarring intellects, and people with broad vision from joining politics.
Why do you forget Mulayam Singh? He has a great quality of pampering muslims and giving tickets to Gundas. He scored #1 in that.
more...
makeup Megan Fox#39;s Transformers 3
neocor
01-09 01:33 PM
I just got to this site via from immigration portal.
I have been reading a lot in the other forum and here about the ways to cure retrogression. Lobbying for more Visa's and other things that were part of the S.1932 bill are fine, however these things are not going to solve the retrogression problem even if such a bill gets passed.
No one seems to be talking about the real problem that is Labor Substitution. Abolishing Labor Substitution will itself take care of every retrogression problem.
The INS does not have the right tools to police the misue of this rule. This is resutling in a lot of problems for even those employees whose Labor's get substituted even if they are still working in the same company.
Any effort to reform immigration should start with first reforming the Labor Substitution rule (if not completely abolish).
I know that all the companies/employers and the lawyers community are against removing the Labor substitution, therefore it will never be removed, but atleast it should be reformed so that it can be better policed so that no one is able to misuse it and play with peoples lives. And in turn add to retregression.
Following reforms are needed in Labor Substitution.
- First thing in the Labor Substitution reform is related to the Priority date. The Priority Date for a substituted Labor should the date when the Labor is substituted (or the I-140 filing date). It should not be be the date when the Labor was originally filed. This in itself will solve 90% of the problems related to retrogression.
- When a Labor is substituted it should be verified immediately to find if there is any I-140 or I-485 that is pending based on this Labor. If so then the Labor should be rejected immediately. Currently this is not done at the time the Labor is substituted, therefore the resulting 485 filing just amounts to add up into the backlog of Visa Number requirement, until the priority date becomes current for this 485.
- If an employee invokes the AC21 then that Labor should not be allowed to be substituted.
- There should be a limit to the time until which a Labor can be substituted. This could be debatable and could have other consequences, as the INS could invalidate any GC application that is been pending for more than the this duration.
In short the Labour substitution rule is in a mess and is getting miused a lot. People are getting fooled by the employers, and ultimately its making the retrogression more worse.
neocor
I have been reading a lot in the other forum and here about the ways to cure retrogression. Lobbying for more Visa's and other things that were part of the S.1932 bill are fine, however these things are not going to solve the retrogression problem even if such a bill gets passed.
No one seems to be talking about the real problem that is Labor Substitution. Abolishing Labor Substitution will itself take care of every retrogression problem.
The INS does not have the right tools to police the misue of this rule. This is resutling in a lot of problems for even those employees whose Labor's get substituted even if they are still working in the same company.
Any effort to reform immigration should start with first reforming the Labor Substitution rule (if not completely abolish).
I know that all the companies/employers and the lawyers community are against removing the Labor substitution, therefore it will never be removed, but atleast it should be reformed so that it can be better policed so that no one is able to misuse it and play with peoples lives. And in turn add to retregression.
Following reforms are needed in Labor Substitution.
- First thing in the Labor Substitution reform is related to the Priority date. The Priority Date for a substituted Labor should the date when the Labor is substituted (or the I-140 filing date). It should not be be the date when the Labor was originally filed. This in itself will solve 90% of the problems related to retrogression.
- When a Labor is substituted it should be verified immediately to find if there is any I-140 or I-485 that is pending based on this Labor. If so then the Labor should be rejected immediately. Currently this is not done at the time the Labor is substituted, therefore the resulting 485 filing just amounts to add up into the backlog of Visa Number requirement, until the priority date becomes current for this 485.
- If an employee invokes the AC21 then that Labor should not be allowed to be substituted.
- There should be a limit to the time until which a Labor can be substituted. This could be debatable and could have other consequences, as the INS could invalidate any GC application that is been pending for more than the this duration.
In short the Labour substitution rule is in a mess and is getting miused a lot. People are getting fooled by the employers, and ultimately its making the retrogression more worse.
neocor
girlfriend Megan Fox#39;s replacement,
Caliber
09-04 01:03 PM
You moron coming from the slum region or any other place in Bihar.
You don't know about keralites.
100% Literacy.
Living standard is same like Europe. (no other state have the facilities such as health care and standard of living like Kerala).
It is God's own country.
Visit and see the details.
Even the guys working in Gulf countries knows better than you and making much more than you. Go and see their houses.(multi storied), You are still in an appartment.
Do you ???? You are _TrueFacts aka poorslumdog aka insider
DEALSNET: You got answers for your own questions. Please understand that every one in Andhra also wanted to live the way you guys enjoy in Kerala. But this guy YSR and his son Jagan grabbed every thing in Hyderabad. If you do not giveyour property, they will kill. They killed 174 people. They even intimidated Judges.
It is Jesus Christ that killed YSR for using his name and doing all worst things that a common man can not even imagine.
By the way what is "APPARTMENT?
You don't know about keralites.
100% Literacy.
Living standard is same like Europe. (no other state have the facilities such as health care and standard of living like Kerala).
It is God's own country.
Visit and see the details.
Even the guys working in Gulf countries knows better than you and making much more than you. Go and see their houses.(multi storied), You are still in an appartment.
Do you ???? You are _TrueFacts aka poorslumdog aka insider
DEALSNET: You got answers for your own questions. Please understand that every one in Andhra also wanted to live the way you guys enjoy in Kerala. But this guy YSR and his son Jagan grabbed every thing in Hyderabad. If you do not giveyour property, they will kill. They killed 174 people. They even intimidated Judges.
It is Jesus Christ that killed YSR for using his name and doing all worst things that a common man can not even imagine.
By the way what is "APPARTMENT?
hairstyles replacement for megan fox
lazycis
02-13 08:46 AM
Does any one on this forum happen to know an approximate dollar amount that would cost for if we (IV team) is planning to proceed further with this class action law suite on USCIS?? the reason I am asking for is if we have known dollar amount/target amount in hand it makes it easy for all to start contributing towards this target amount and proceed further with law suite.
I am sure someone on IV team would create a separate bucket for this specific class action law suite task and keep track of amount that's been collected...
Yes, I totally support this class action suite and also willing to support as mush as I can financially....
I think the good start is to consult with Rajiv Khanna. He has an experience in class-actions/federal litigation and will tell whether it is feasible to go this way. It will cost $600 (approximately). To file a class-action complaint will cost around $10k. The rest depends on the lenght of the proceedings, but my estimate is another 20-30k. Peanuts comparing to lobbying :) IV may not want to go this way, as Mark Bartosik once explained, it may hurt its other efforts. If that's the case, potential plaintiffs can work with lawyers directly.
I am sure someone on IV team would create a separate bucket for this specific class action law suite task and keep track of amount that's been collected...
Yes, I totally support this class action suite and also willing to support as mush as I can financially....
I think the good start is to consult with Rajiv Khanna. He has an experience in class-actions/federal litigation and will tell whether it is feasible to go this way. It will cost $600 (approximately). To file a class-action complaint will cost around $10k. The rest depends on the lenght of the proceedings, but my estimate is another 20-30k. Peanuts comparing to lobbying :) IV may not want to go this way, as Mark Bartosik once explained, it may hurt its other efforts. If that's the case, potential plaintiffs can work with lawyers directly.
Milind123
07-24 07:33 PM
Good luck buddy. Well said.
bobby
07-04 12:51 PM
My suggestions:
"Door slams shut for highly skilled LEGAL immigrants in the US"
"US closes the door for highly skilled LEGAL immigrants"
"US isolates highly skilled legal immigrants"
"Broken Legal immigration system harmful to US competitiveness"
"Legal Immigration system in shambles"
I had started working on a letter myself but will wait for yours....here's my initial scribbles fyi....
Law abiding skilled legal immigrants persecuted by government misstep
On 7/2/07 the door was slammed shut for many skilled legal immigrants without notice while only 2 weeks earlier these same legal immigrants had been notified that the final stage of their immigration i.e.: green card processing, could begin. This occurred not because these legal immigrants had not followed the rules but rather due to scandalous government actions. These actions have caused outrage & devastation amongst skilled legal immigrants and immigration attorneys alike who question the government�s credibility and the government�s disregard for precedent and the law. The results may be costly litigation and a class action lawsuit by the governing body, the American Immigration Lawyers Association against the government.
Much focus has been placed on illegal immigrants in this country. Yet, the broken immigration system holds ominous consequences for skilled legal immigrants which the US needs to remain competitive and at the forefront of technological and medical development. The obsolete immigration laws do not address this need and government missteps further contribute to the persecution of law abiding skilled legal immigrants who wait patiently in line and live with severe restrictions for many years while their immigration cases are processed.
....I was going to continue with information on the visa bulleting and IV etc.....
"Door slams shut for highly skilled LEGAL immigrants in the US"
"US closes the door for highly skilled LEGAL immigrants"
"US isolates highly skilled legal immigrants"
"Broken Legal immigration system harmful to US competitiveness"
"Legal Immigration system in shambles"
I had started working on a letter myself but will wait for yours....here's my initial scribbles fyi....
Law abiding skilled legal immigrants persecuted by government misstep
On 7/2/07 the door was slammed shut for many skilled legal immigrants without notice while only 2 weeks earlier these same legal immigrants had been notified that the final stage of their immigration i.e.: green card processing, could begin. This occurred not because these legal immigrants had not followed the rules but rather due to scandalous government actions. These actions have caused outrage & devastation amongst skilled legal immigrants and immigration attorneys alike who question the government�s credibility and the government�s disregard for precedent and the law. The results may be costly litigation and a class action lawsuit by the governing body, the American Immigration Lawyers Association against the government.
Much focus has been placed on illegal immigrants in this country. Yet, the broken immigration system holds ominous consequences for skilled legal immigrants which the US needs to remain competitive and at the forefront of technological and medical development. The obsolete immigration laws do not address this need and government missteps further contribute to the persecution of law abiding skilled legal immigrants who wait patiently in line and live with severe restrictions for many years while their immigration cases are processed.
....I was going to continue with information on the visa bulleting and IV etc.....
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